Date: 22 Jan 88 21:44:34 GMT From: decvax!chaos!uokmax!rmtodd@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Richard Michael From: Todd) Subject: L. Neil Smith ccs023@deneb.ucdavis.edu.UUCP (Robert Giedt) writes: >He has also written many other books, most of which are set in an >alternate earth future. I recommend them highly, especially the >first book... > The Probability Broach > The Venus Belt (a little slow) > Tom Paine Maru > The Gallatin Divergence >Other books by L. Neil Smith: > The Nagasaki Vector > Their Majesties' Bucketeers (out of print) Just a bit of clarification here: The other two books you mention are also part of the same series in that they involve the same universe (the North American Confederacy). In _The Nagasaki Vector_, a time/space ship from our own future accidentally gets blown into the alternate timeline. Edward Bear, the character from _The Probability Broach_, et al, also appears in _The Nagasaki Vector_. _Their Majesties' Bucketeers_ deals with the planet Sodde Lydfe(sp?) and events on that planet some 20 yrs before they are contacted by the Earth ship _Tom Paine Maru_ (as described in the book of the same name). I liked all of these books (except for The Probability Broach, which I have yet to find), but fair warning: if you can't stand writers with strong Libertarian beliefs, you definitely won't like L. Neil Smith. Richard Todd 820 Annie Court Norman OK 73069 {allegra!cbosgd|ihnp4}!occrsh!uokmax!rmtodd Date: 27 Jan 88 05:49:53 GMT From: troly@cs.ucla.edu Subject: Re: L. Neil Smith Hardly a surprise anyway. At one point something I say could be considered a spoiler by some. rmtodd@uokmax.UUCP () writes: [recommendations for books by L. Neil Smith] I've read 2 books by L. Neil Smith, _The Probability Broach_ and _Tom Paine Maru_ and I want to warn the net that they are really god-awful. Richard Todd says that some people might be put off by L. Neil Smith's strong libertarian views. I have strong libertarian views but I am put off by L. Neil Smith's lousy writing. He attempts to capture the zaniness of _Illuminatus!_ and fails badly, partially because he lacks a sense of humor. The plots are mechanical and obvious. The characters are cardboard, but apparently it's a chore for him to think up even cardboard characters. He reuses the same cut-outs for his characters in _Tom Paine Maru_ that he used in _The Probability Broach_. He preaches incessantly. I can testify from experience that even libertarian anarcho-capitalist choir boys like me are ready to throw vegetables at him after a few chapters of this. (Preaching isn't necessarilly bad. E.g., in Ayn Rand's _Atlas Shrugged_ the preaching moves the story and is an integral part of it. But Smith's preaching is *bad* preaching.) For example, both of these stories uses a female character cut-out who is a *fanatical* anarchist. She is initially extremely hostile to the initially non-anarchist male lead cut-out and is forever pontificating on the evils of government. Eventually of course he gets converted and they live happily ever after. Now this female cut-out has led all her life in an anarcho-capitalist utopia, which has been long established. So why is she so vituperative? It's much as if a modern American would fly into violent rages at the thought of the crimes committed by the British monarchy during the American revolution. (Notice that the last paragraph of mine reviews *both* books!) Near the end of the _Probability Broach_ he includes a badly written sex scene. I think he figured he should because he noticed that _Illuminatus_ contained a lot of sex. Of course he didn't understand *why* _Illuminatus_ had a lot of sex. I have nothing against sex and a great deal for it, so why do I bring this up? I say the scene is badly written, but then the whole book is badly written. -The point is that at the end of the book he reveals that the whole book is a letter by the hero to a political party. The book is written nothing like such a letter; and such a letter would not contain blow by blow (pun) descriptions of his sexual activities with his fiance. If you still want to waste a few bucks and a number of hours on these books, go ahead, BUT DON'T BLAME ME! troly@MATH.UCLA.EDU Date: 29 Jan 88 21:25:02 GMT From: dasys1!wlinden@rutgers.edu (William Linden) Subject: Re: L. Neil Smith (was: Re: C3PO and R2D2 troly@MATH.UCLA.EDU (Bret Jolly) writes: > I've read 2 books by L. Neil Smith, _The Probability Broach_ and _Tom >Paine Maru_ and I want to warn the net that they are really god-awful. [Assessement at length of Smith's faults deleted for brevity] While I agree with the assessment given by the previous poster (although, being a sucker for CW books, I did not think PROBABILITY BROACH was THAT bad), the two he names are masterful compared with THE GALLATIN DIVERGENCE. The whole plot is a time-travel story devoted to Our Heroes trying to thwart a statist plot to change the past of their time-line and prevent the anarcho-libertarian society of the previous books from coming into existence. Then the Good Guys inadvertently change history themselves-- and it turns out not to matter, because their original timeline is still there for them to reach. No explanation given for this abrupt about-face. He also has his 18th century characters talking in 20th century Americanese about discrimination by "sexual preference". Sufficiently nauseating-- but then, the proclivities he invents for the Bad Guys show clearly that he considers some sexual preferences preferable to others. Will Linden {bellcore,cmcl2}!cucard!dasys1!wlinden Date: 9 Mar 88 01:40:28 GMT From: erspert@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Ellen R. Spertus) Subject: Books with Allusions to Objectivism, Libertarianism, or Individualism As someone sympathetic to objectivism (small-o only) and other individualist philsophies/politics, I have been collecting fiction, mostly science-fiction, which are either about libertarianism or have allusions. I'm listing the books I know of here and would love to hear from other people. Any replies sent to me will be summarized and posted. I would also like to see a list of Prometheus Award winners, if anyone has one. Most famous is Robert Heinlein's _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_, which has a revolution on the moon which parallels the American revolution (i.e. is libertarian). One character is asked if he is a Randite, and another is called their John Galt. L. Neil Smith has written a series of books (of varying quality) about an alternate universe whose history diverged shortly after the American Revolution, with the result being that this America lived up to the ideals of the revolution. The first and best book in the series is _The Probability Broach_, with hilarious allusions and caricatures. There are about six other books in the series. F. Paul Wilson wrote my favorite book on this list, _An Enemy of the State_, recently out of print, about an anarchist revolution. Of all the books here, it is the closest to being truly philosophical. Among other things, Wilson shows the difference between nihilists and (individualist) anarchists. Very good reading. The mentor of the hero is named Adrynna! I'll leave you that one to figure out yourself :-). Wilson has written two other science fiction books that I know of: _Healer_ and _Wheels Within Wheels_ which are not as blatantly individualist but still pretty good. I've read one of his many horror books, which contains an allusion to Rand near the beginning. (A doctor states that if a socialist medical law passes, he'll "shrug".) F. Neil Shulman, the final member in the libertarian-authors-with-first- initial-and-four-letter-middle-name clique, has written _Alongside Night_ and Prometheus Award winning _The Rainbow Cadenza_. _Alongside Night_ is a short light book set in an America in the not too distant future. It is fun to read but the writing isn't great. The writing and characterization are a lot better in _Alongside Night_, which is set in the more distant future. James Hogan wrote Prometheus Award winning _Voyage from Yesteryear_ and _Code of the Lifemaker_. Neither have any explicit references to libertarianism or objectivism, but both are individualist. My favorite is _Code of the Lifemaker_ whose characters include a (fake) psychic and a debunker obviously based on The Amazing Randi. Both books are a little slow until the two differing groups meet, so skimming is excusable (recommended?). Ellen Spertus Goodale 503 3 Ames Street Cambridge, MA 02139 Date: 11 Mar 88 01:32:11 GMT From: stephens@hpcupt1.hp.com (Greg Stephens) Subject: Re: Re: Books with Allusions to Objectivism, Libertarianism, or Individualism Thanks for the recommendation. I get a newsletter from a Liberterian/ Free Enterprise book club in NY (can't remember the name now) that list a few SF books that they liked. The only one I have read is Heinleins' _Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ which I liked. I am curious if anyone has read and can recommend any of the other books on their list (off the top of my head) they are: Anderson, Poul _Orion Shall Rise_ Koman, Victor _The Jehovah Contract_ Smith, L. Neil _The Probability Broach_ Date: 1 Apr 88 04:01:29 GMT From: erspert@athena.mit.edu (Ellen R. Spertus) Subject: Books with Allusions to Objectivism, Libertarianism, or Individualism Several weeks ago, I posted a message describing a number of individiualist science fiction books, and asked for titles that other people had read. Below is my original message and the replies I received. Thanks to everyone who replied. If anyone has more titles, I'd love to hear of them. In response to someone who asked, I'm just creating the list for fun. I'm not planning on publishing any bibliography or analysis. >As someone sympathetic to objectivism (small-o only) and other >individualist philosophies/politics, I have been collecting fiction, >mostly science-fiction, which are either about libertarianism or have >allusions. I'm listing the books I know of here and would love to hear >from other people. Any replies sent to me will be summarized and posted. >I would also like to see a list of Prometheus Award winners, if anyone has >one. From: Ellen Spertus Most famous is Robert Heinlein's _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_, which has a revolution on the moon which parallels the American revolution (i.e. is libertarian). One character is asked if he is a Randite, and another is called their John Galt. L. Neil Smith has written a series of books (of varying quality) about an alternate universe whose history diverged shortly after the American Revolution, with the result being that this America lived up to the ideals of the revolution. The first and best book in the series is _The Probability Broach_, with hilarious allusions and caricatures. There are about six other books in the series. F. Paul Wilson wrote my favorite book on this list, _An Enemy of the State_, recently out of print, about an anarchist revolution. Of all the books here, it is the closest to being truly philosophical. Among other things, Wilson shows the difference between nihilists and (individualist) anarchists. Very good reading. The mentor of the hero is named Adrynna! I'll leave you that one to figure out yourself :-). Wilson has written two other science fiction books that I know of: _Healer_ and _Wheels Within Wheels_ which are not as blatantly individualist but still pretty good. I've read one of his many horror books, which contains an allusion to Rand near the beginning. (A doctor states that if a socialist medical law passes, he'll "shrug".) F. Neil Shulman, the final member in the libertarian-authors-with-first- initial-and-four-letter-middle-name clique, has written _Alongside Night_ and Prometheus Award winning _The Rainbow Cadenza_. _Alongside Night_ is a short light book set in an America in the not too distant future. It is fun to read but the writing isn't great. The writing and characterization are a lot better in _Alongside Night_, which is set in the more distant future. James Hogan wrote Prometheus Award winning _Voyage from Yesteryear_ and _Code of the Lifemaker_. Neither have any explicit references to libertarianism or objectivism, but both are individualist. My favorite is _Code of the Lifemaker_ whose characters include a (fake) psychic and a debunker obviously based on The Amazing Randi. Both books are a little slow until the two differing groups meet, so skimming is excusable (recommended?). From: mok@pawl.rpi.edu If you're interested in politics, libertarianism or the like you should try almost ANYTHING by Mack Reynolds. I don't remember many of the titles off the top of my head (he wrote a LOT and I haven't read most of them), but they are all good and almost all politically inspired. The only problem I have with Mack Reynolds is that a fair number of his books are set in one of 3 different worlds all of which have a oppressive government or other serious problems and he writes the books at different intervals in their history. You get to see these world slowly, but steadily going from bad to worse... At least I have had the satisfaction of seeing things finally STARTING to look up in one of these worlds, but it gets REALLY depressing when you know that the future of the world you're reading about is even worse than the present. From: joel@media-lab.MEDIA.MIT.EDU The Dispossessed, by Ursula K. LeGuin. A very good book that gives insight on how an anarchist civilization might work - or might not. Read it. Especially good to compare with Atlas Shrugged. From: josh@topaz.rutgers.edu (J Storrs Hall) There are two short stories that are must reading on any individualist's list: Lipidleggin' by the same F Paul Wilson (this can be found in The Survival of Freedom edited by Pournelle) and And Then There Were None by Eric Frank Russell (I don't know offhand where this can be found, check classic anthologies) From: vohra@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com (Pavan Vohra) josh@topaz.rutgers.edu (J Storrs Hall) writes: >And Then There Were None by Eric Frank Russell (I don't know offhand where >this can be found, check classic anthologies) Try _Science Fiction Hall of Fame_. From: mcb@oddjob.uchicago.edu One obvious collection would be the Discordian stuff. This is very strange material, but a lot of it has to do with individualism. The two classics that I know of are the Illuminatus trilogy by Robert Anton Wilson and Robin? Shea, and the Principia Discordia. The Principia isn't really fiction, but Illuminatus is, and a number of Wilson's other books (Schroedinger's cat, the Illuminati papers, etc) come somewhere in between. From: lve@EDDIE.MIT.EDU (Lucien Van Elsen) Saw your posting on the net - all my favorites too, plus a few I hadn't heard of. I stumbled across another interesting story with a libertarian bent just a couple weeks ago - The Ungoverned by Vernor Vinge. It's about a post-nuclear America that is "ungoverned" - everything is done by contracts. The story isn't the best, but it has an interesting background. From: andreag@Psych.Stanford.EDU (Andrea Gallagher) Don't forget Vernor Vinge, who's _The_Peace_War_ is based in a semi-anarchistic society (eventually), and his _True_Names_ has a short story (forget the title) about a statist nation attacking an anarchist area. Well written, too. From: John.Wenn@GANDALF.CS.CMU.EDU The Prometheus Award Winners that I know about (I haven't heard about the 1986 hall of fame entries one way or the other) are: Prometheus Award [October] 1979 "Wheels Within Wheels" by F. Paul Wilson 1980 "The Probability Broach" By L. Neil Smith 1981 1982 1983 "Voyage to Yesteryear" by James Hogan Hall of Fame: "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" by Robert Heinlein "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand 1984 "The Rainbow Cadenza" by J. Neil Schulman Hall of Fame: "Fahrenheit 451" by Ray Bradbury "1984" by George Orwell 1985 Hall of Fame: "Trader to the Stars" by Poul Anderson "The Great Exposition" by Eric Frank Russell 1986 "The Cybernetic Samurai" by Victor Milan 1987 "Marooned in Real Time" by Vernor Vinge Hall of Fame: "Stranger in a Strange Land" by Robert Heinlein "Anthem" by Ayn Rand From: dougf@tybalt.caltech.edu (Douglas J. Freyburger) Poul Anderson is a libertarian who has included his philosophy into much of his writing. His main future-history line with the Poleseotechnic League, Nickolas van Rijn, the Terran Empire and Dominic Flandry is filled with it. The Poleseotechnic League is a libertarian co-op of industrial space-faring companies (that breaks up eventually as all libertarian systems historically have so far). From: Brad Templeton I'm surprised you didn't list one of the most widely known works, namely the Illuminatus Trilogy, by Wilson & Shea. It's still in print. If you haven't read Vernor Vinge, in particular "the Ungoverned" and "The Peace War", you'll want to check that out. From: esunix!loosemor@cs.utah.edu (Sandra Loosemore) Here are a few that I know about: "The Girl Who Owned a City", by O.T. Nelson. This is a book for children ages 10-12 or thereabouts. It is definitely Objectivist propaganda. Any of Kay Nolte Smith's books. Her first, "The Watcher", won an Edgar award for best mystery novel of the year, and the others are just as good. These aren't traditional whodunnit-type mysteries; they're more suspense stories. She writes about marvelous characters and her books have a distinctly feminist slant as well. Read "Requiem for a Soprano" after you've read Barbara [Message accidentally cut] From: "Michelle M. Gardner" I read your request in SFLovers, and here's a couple of suggestions. First of all, you should read Ayn Rand's "Anthem" which deals with personal liberty v. the state. Awesome book. Second, you might want to take a look at Christopher Stasheff's Warlock books. They're highly entertaining and contain, for the most part, classic church-state conflicts. From: wlinden@dasys1.UUCP (William Linden) >And Then There Were None by Eric Frank Russell >(I don't know offhand where this can be found, check classic >anthologies) This forms the last third of the novel THE GREAT EXPLOSION. I have lost my copy, and would appreciate pointers to another. It was ignored, outrageously, in Ballantine's reprints of Russell. From: stephens@hpcupt1.HP.COM (Greg Stephens) Thanks for the recommendation. I get a newsletter from a Liberterian/ Free Enterprise book club in NY (can't remember the name now) that list a few SF books that they liked. The only one I have read is Heinleins' _Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ which I liked. I am curious if anyone has read and can recommend any of the other books on their list (off the top of my head) they are: Anderson, Poul _Orion Shall Rise_ Koman, Victor _The Jehovah Contract_ Smith, L. Neil _The Probability Broach_ From: gls@odyssey.ATT.COM (g.l.sicherman) Such a book is _The Eye in the Pyramid_ by R. Shea and R. A. Wilson. It's s.f./fantasy. One of the characters, Atlanta Hope, has a big cult novel called _Telemachus Sneezed,_--and a cult called "God's Lightning" to go with it! They're both *very* individualistic books, maybe even too individualistic for a novice like you. You might start with Van Vogt's _The World of Null-A,_ in which the main character gets killed in the middle, and a clone of him starts living the rest of the novel for him. You can't get much more individualistic than that! From: eric@snark.UUCP (Eric S. Raymond) Ellen R. Spertus writes: >James Hogan wrote Prometheus Award winning _Voyage from Yesteryear_ and >_Code of the Lifemaker_. Neither have any explicit references to >libertarianism or objectivism, but both are individualist. Ah. Obviously you haven't yet read Hogan's _Voyage_From_Yesteryear_, which is explicitly anarcho-individualist. I also recommend Vernor Vinge's work; most notably _The_Peace_War_, _Marooned_In_Realtime_, and the bridge novelette _The_Ungoverned_Lands_ (recently reissued in the excellent _True_Names_And_ Other_Dangers anthology); all three are explicitly anarcho-libertarian. I also recommend Marc Stiegler's _David's_Sling_, not explicitly libertarian but very interesting for its suggestions on how information-age decentralist thinking can beat industrial-age statism (though he never uses the latter label). From: turpin@sally.utexas.edu (Russell Turpin) A classic in this genre is "We", by Zamyatin. It ranks right up there with "Brave New World" and "1984". PS: Since you show some interest in objectivism, allow me to recommend Barbara Branden's biography of Rand. Rand is a person about whom it would be very easy for a biographer either to adulate or mercilessly condemn. Branden does very well at presenting her life without doing too much of either, though I think her appraisal of Rand's significance in the epilogue is biased by her closeness to her subject. From: gsmith@BOSCO.BERKELEY.EDU wlinden@dasys1.UUCP (William Linden) writes: >josh@topaz.rutgers.edu (J Storrs Hall) writes: >>And Then There Were None by Eric Frank Russell > >This forms the last third of the novel THE GREAT EXPLOSION. I have lost my >copy, and would appreciate pointers to another. It was ignored, >outrageously, in Ballantine's reprints of Russell. I might add that Hogan's "Voyage From Yesteryear", which was mentioned in a previous article, owes a great deal to Eric Frank Russell's "And Then There Were None". Makes me wonder how individual some individualists are. Date: 7 Apr 88 20:18:10 GMT From: jailbait@dasys1.uucp (Richard Segal) Subject: The Prometheus Awards A while ago, Ellen Spertus asked for a list of the winners of the Prometheus Award and, as I haven't seen such a list posted, here it goes: (also, many thanks to the folks at Laissez-Faire Books in NYC) 1979 Wheels Within Wheels F. Paul Wilson 1982 Probability Broach L. Neil Smith 1983 Voyage From Yesteryear James Hogan 1984 The Rainbow Cadenza J. Neil Schlman 1985 (No award) 1986 The Cybernetic Samurai Victor Milan 1987 Marooned In Realtime Vernor Vinge and the Hall of Fame winners: 1983 The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress Robert Heinlein Atlas Shrugged Ayn Rand 1984 1984 George Orwell Farenheit 451 Ray Bradbury 1985 Trader To The Stars Poul Anderson The Great Explorers (?? Messy notes) Erik Frank Russell 1986 The Syndic C.M. Kornbluth Illuminatus! Robert Shea & Robert Anton Wilson 1987 Anthem Ayn Rand Stranger In A Strange Land Robert Heinlein For all who way care: The Libertarian Futurist Society 89 Gebhardt Rd. Penfield N.Y. 14526 I've not read most of these book (4 of the Hall of Famers, and none of the others) so this is just a list, not a set of recommendations (except for Illuminatus!, which everyone should read!) Richard Segal ARPA:SEGAL@ACFCluster.NYU.EDU ..!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!jailbait BITNET:SEGAL@NYUACF.bitnet Date: 6 Dec 88 17:01:29 GMT From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Subject: Taflak Lysandra This has been quite a month for bad sequels. L. Neil Smith's "Taflak Lysandra" (Avon, 12/88) is the latest addition to Smith's series of books placed in a universe where everything went right for Libertarianism. I've been buying these books in hopes that one of them will come up, again, to the brilliance of "Their Majesties' Bucketeers", but I've been coming up dry. Very dry in this latest case. Worse, it appears that this book is the second ("Brightsuit MacBear" was the first) of a new (are you ready for this?) heptology. This isn't a review, per se. If you haven't read anything by this author, this isn't the place to start. Read his excellent "Their Majesties Bucketeers". For more typical, but still well-written fare, read "Tom Paine Maru". If you have read other books by this author, you'll want to know how it compares to his other books. The answer is "poorly". Dani Zweig haste+@andrew.cmu.edu Date: 14 Dec 88 23:33:46 GMT From: tran@portia.stanford.edu (Hy Tran) Subject: Re: Does Frankowskis Hi-Tech Knight Exist? Tim_Lavan@f942.n135.z1.fidonet.org (Tim Lavan) writes: >>Also any suggestions for other books - Time travel, alternate historys >>would be appreciated. >[ recommends Pournelle's Janissaries; R. Adams' Horseclan, and L. Neil >Smith ] Far older, and, in my opinion, better, are H. Beam Piper's "Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen", and other Piper cross-time stories. Along similar lines are Keith Laumer's "Worlds of the Imperium" and its sequel "The Other Side of Time." L. Sprague de Camp wrote an excellent time-travel story, with a plot idea almost identical to what Frankowski used, titled "Lest Darkness Fall." I found "Lest Darkness Fall" much more plausible, especially in terms of the difficulties the protagonist would face. (de Camp had, as his premise, a historian winding up in 4th century (or is it 5th? I can never count...) Rome. Also of interest (but harder to find) is P. Schuyler Miller's (or is it P. Miller Schuyler? My memory is really getting bad) "Genus Homo". A very entertaining tale of plain folks in not-so-plain situations. Hy Tran tran@krakatoa.stanford.edu {...}!decwrl!krakatoa.stanford.edu!tran tran%krakatoa.stanford.edu@STANFORD.BITNET