From: "Strong, Lee" <StrongL at MTMC.ARMY.MIL>
To: "'WSFA members'" <WSFAlist at keithlynch.net>
Subject: [WSFA] Re: Got Milk?
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 08:52:51 -0500
Reply-To: WSFA members <WSFAlist at keithlynch.net>

	Good morning, Ted.  The Doc Savage novel that you refer to is
_Murder Melody_ in which the underground civilization of Subterranea is
located under the Pacific Ocean, not under either pole.  Polar openings are
common to Hollow Earth Theory, which is obviously related to Subterranea and
the Shaver Mystery, but not the same.
	I have a fondness for the Hollow Earth Theory since reading Edgar
Rice Burroughs' Pellucidar novels was an important step in my journey into
science fiction.  While the Hollow Earth Theory has been utterly discredited
by serious science, Burroughs' use of this theory is an excellent example of
an author taking an outre idea and running with it, producing entertaining
literature as a result.
	Not having been alive during the 1940s, I missed the original Shaver
Mystery and have to learn about it via second hand accounts.  When I get my
time machine working, I will certainly put meeting Mr. Shaver on my list of
things to do.
	Ted, you seem to be reacting to a number of ideas that exist in your
mind, not mine.  I have never seen anyone split open rocks to reveal
spacesuit patterns and never said that I had.  (I have seen people spliting
rocks open for other reasons.)  I only learned of this practice from you.
Therefore, your question about my credulity strikes me as overblown
rhetoric, not a serious concern for my mental health.
	Nevertheless, allow me to take your concerns about my credulity
seriously:  I do not believe in the "Shaverian" theory of underground
civilizations populated by dero and tero descendants of the Atlans and
Titans of Greek myth.  Nor do I equate pseduo-science with real science.
However, you appear to believe that pseudo-science is so radioactive that no
one can examine it without becoming hopelessly contaminated by it.  I
disagree.  I believe that the intelligent individual can read (or watch)
pseudo-science and derive entertainment value from it... much as the
intelligent individual can read (or watch) science fiction and derive
entertainment from it without concluding that Thomas J. Whitmore was
President of the United States in 1996.  And there is always the possibility
that a fringe belief will be validated and accepted by serious scientists.
There are multiple examples of this happening in almost all branches of real
science.  Shaverism is almost certainly not likely to be validated by real
science, but (with apologies to William Shakespeare) there are more things
in the world that are dreamed of by your small philosophy, Horatio.
									Your
friend and sparring partner, Lee

-----Original Message-----
From: Ted White [mailto:tedwhite at compusnet.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 4:17 PM
To: WSFA members
Subject: [WSFA] Re: Got Milk?

"Strong, Lee" wrote:

>         Ted, Thank you for correcting my chronology.  O.K.  Shaver might
> have been influenced by speculation about atomic warfare etc. prior to the
> 1950s.  As for proving Shaver's influence on _The Time Machine (1960)_, I
> said this was merely speculation and therefore I don't feel a need for a
> detailed defense.  I can show, as a general proposition, that real people
> pick up and adopt ideas from people that they claim to hold in complete
> contempt so I can not rule out a POSSIBLE Shaverian influence on _The Time
> Machine (1960)_.  Since H.G. Wells wrote at least one atomic warfare story
> as well as the original novel about dehumanized humans living underground,
> one might speculate further that Wells influenced Shaver who influenced
the
> script of _The Time Machine_.

This is what used to be called "playing tune detective."  Sam Moskowitz did
it
all the time.  If author A used an idea in a story in the March, 1933 WONDER
STORIES and author B used a similar idea in the April, 1933 AMAZING, well,
then,
clearly B was influenced by A.  (Moskowitz overlooked the fact that stories
are
not always published in the order in which they are written, and that
lead-time
meant that author B had not seen author A's story when he wrote his, etc.
To
say nothing of authors A and B socializing with editor C, who proposed the
idea
to *both* of them....)

The idea of living in caves -- or of other races living in caves -- is
Ancient
and probably embedded deeply in the human collective unconsciousness.  Think
of
all the stories of worlds at Earth's center.  DOC SAVAGE ran a novel about
people who lived in an underground world reached via one (or both) of the
poles,
back in the mid-'30s.   These are ideas which are Out There in a common pool
from which authors have drawn over many ages and generations.  Why assume
that
these ideas originated with Shaver and that others who used them *had* to be
influenced by Shaver?   Common sense suggests otherwise.

>         You also wrote that you are incredulous that I would dignify the
> ravings of the lunatic in this fashion.  I take that as a complement to my
> good taste.  However, I don't have a Geiger counter that enables me to
> separate stupid stuff from smart stuff at a distance.  So, I read lots of
> stuff and analyze it according to my best understanding of how the
universe
> works so that I can categorize the stuff accurately.  If you would like to
> discuss my arcane hobby further, fine, but it sounds like you are reading
> more into it than I do.  In the meantime, please recommend a good book or
> website that discusses the Shaver Mystery accurately and completely.
Thank
> you again.

When people split open rocks and display their new faces to you and ask if
you
see the space-suit designs in them, how much of a "Geiger counter" do you
need?   How far does your credulity extend?

I've never encountered any books or websites that "discuss the Shaver
Mystery
accurately and completely."   I *read* the original material, in AMAZING.
(And,
later, in Ray Palmer's OTHER WORLDS.)  I also read the 1948 article in LIFE
magazine on the subject, but I would not characterize it as accurate and
complete.

Shaverism was discussed thoroughly and at length in fandom in the '40s.
AMAZING narrowly avoided an organized boycott, and *was* boycotted by such
then-prominent fans as Forry Ackerman.   (That's why Rog Phillips' "The
Clubhouse" was initiated -- to win back the fans.)

--Ted White