Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 13:12:31 -0400
From: Elspeth Kovar <ekovar at radix.net>
To: WSFA members <WSFAlist at keithlynch.net>
Subject: [WSFA] Re: The Constitution and the Citizen
Reply-To: WSFA members <WSFAlist at keithlynch.net>

Steve Smith wrote:
>
> Elspeth Kovar wrote:
> >
> > Steve Smith wrote:
> > >
> > > "Strong, Lee" wrote:
> > > >
> > > >         Haddad's crime is a real, nonpolitical crime that he actually
> > > > committed.  The website you introduced into this discussion admits that.  It
> > > > is legitimate to arrest a person on one crime that he has actually committed
> > > > even if you think he is ALSO guilty of another.
> > >
> > > Yep.  We have a number of "crimes" that are very useful for nailing
> > > people we don't like.  Overstaying a visa is one.  Given the famous
> > > efficiency of the INS (see
> > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A16787-2002Mar12
> > > for the most famous recent example), overstaying a visa is common to the
> > > point of being unavoidable.
> >
> > Steve, that doesn't make sense.  It translates into "Because the agency
> > that is supposed to kick me out if I overstay my visa is inefficient
> > overstaying my visa is unavoidable."  Run that by me again?
>
> No, it translates into "because the agency that grants visas is
> inefficient and inconsistent, overstaying a visa is often unavoidable".
> Mohamed Atta and Marwan Alshehhi's student visas took a year to get
> processed.

That doesn't answer the point (and, in fact, is countered by what you
say below about the change in immigration law).

> The INS seems to have a really serious communications problem, along
> with everything else.  I'll lay odds the visa people never talk to the
> enforcement people.
>
> > Look, people know when their visas expire.  They know that if they stay
> > in the US afterwards that they're here illegally.  The fact that there
> > has, until now, been no concerted effort to track down such people
> > doesn't change the fact that they're knowingly committing a crime, with
> > no quotes whatsoever.
>
> Think of what it would be like if the Departmant of Motor Vehicles was
> like this.  When would you need to renew your car tags or driver's
> license?

Exactly what I did for my drivers license a year ago and for my car
registration last month:  I kept an eye on when they were going to
expire and took care of it before it did.

Erica brings up the science writer who was accustomed to someone else
taking care of it, but that was the fault of his publication, not of the
INS.  The caseworker not knowing about Oxford is a different matter,
however.  It should have been possible to bump up a level or more to
someone a bit more knowledgeable but, it should be pointed out, things
did work out.

> I do remember seeing somewhere that one of the changes in the
> immigration law a few years ago was that people waiting for an INS
> ruling on a change of visa status didn't need to leave the country.
>
> Note -- I tried to check some of these things out at the INS Website
> (http://www.ins.gov) but the part of their site that handles laws seems
> to be down.  Maybe later.
>
> --
> Steve Smith                                           sgs at aginc.net
> Agincourt Computing                            http://www.aginc.net
> "Truth is stranger than fiction because fiction has to make sense."

Truth does make sense.  We just don't always see it.

Elspeth