Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 11:40:56 -0400 To: WSFA members <WSFAlist at WSFA.org> From: "Mike B." <omni at omniphile.com> Subject: [WSFA] Re: Never offer advice when you can give help. Reply-To: WSFA members <WSFAlist at WSFA.org> At 02:35 PM 4/15/05 GMT, Ern wrote: >Disagree. Just good sense, which I lack in abundance. With the top posting it's hard to tell, but on the assumption that this: >Good manners are what keep you from correcting the folks with bad manners. is what you were replying to with the above, I'll suggest that "good sense" is what is supposed to be behind "good manners". Any social grouping is going to have frictions and disagreements and various forces trying to break it up. If some means is not found to minimize this stuff, the social grouping won't last long. There are various systems in use now and in the past to accomplish this, and the concept of "good manners", i.e. accepted and agreed upon standards of behavior, is one of the more common ones. They serve to minimize friction, describe how to interact with strangers such that they should not be offended, and reinforce the membership in the social group of all who display them...and highlight the non-membership of those who don't. Exactly what constitutes "good manners" varies from group to group, and even between sub-groups of larger societies. In some places it is good manners to belch after dinner, in others this is the height of rudeness. In some places it is very bad manners to show someone the bottom of your feet, in others this is of no consequence. There are sometimes practical reasons for the rules, but often these are long forgotten and only the rule remains...because it still serves the main purposes of "good manners", which is social lubrication and identification. The specifics are less important than the existence of the system. Why identification is important is related to why social groups form in the first place: mutual support and protection. The protection is usually from other groups as well as natural hazards (wild animals, natural disasters, etc.), and if you are going to protect against other groups and help those in yours you need a way to tell who belongs with whom. I think this "us vs them" thing has been going on so long that humans actually have developed an "us vs. them" instinct. We almost automatically divide things up that way...though the actual boundaries are somewhat fluid based on context. For instance, a Democrat might be "us" making Republicans "them" in some contexts, but in other contexts both are "Americans"..."us"...while the "them" might be another country, such as Iraq, Iran, North Korea....or France. We do this dividing up along sex lines, geographic areas of various sizes, political beliefs, entertainment preferences, pet preferences, sports team preference, race, language, economic level, marital status, religion, transport preference, exercise preference, food preference, etc., etc., etc.. We consider others either an "us" or a "them" at the drop of a hat. I don't think we have the ability NOT to do this...though we do have some control over the criteria used and in how we relate to "them" once we've identified who that is. Why is this relevant to SF? This stuff all relates back to biology if you chase it far enough, and that relies on the physical laws of the universe. In making up alien races, or deciding if the ones made up by others "work", this stuff should be considered, as all species are living under the same physical laws. There are other possible solutions than the ones in use by humans of course, but all have to make sense within the physical laws and be sensible for whatever biology you come up with...and whatever you need the species to be doing. For instance, if you solve the social friction problems by having overriding instincts for getting along, ala ants or bees, you aren't likely to get the sorts of things you get from a species of individualists, such as crime within the society, or entrepreneurship and inventiveness. Behavior and thus the thought behind it (in an intelligent species) is going to be very tightly controlled by the instincts, and this will limit the good along with the bad aspects of large groups living together. They may have no politics, laws, courts or police...and no need for them. The very concept might be beyond their ability to comprehend as anything other than a result of serious insanity. It would be...for them. A species that can satisfy all its needs for protection and resource acquisition as individuals (like dragons? ;-) may not form societies in the first place, and if population size results in such a need, they may be very loosely held together (like the UN in many ways I expect). One that breeds rapidly and doesn't need education (perhaps acquiring the parents' knowledge directly in utero) might just ignore the frictions for the most part and solve all personal problems with duels to the death...or the small group equivalent (gang wars?). Any individual can be replaced pretty easily by any of his recent offspring, so society continues fine without those lost by this method of settling conflicts...at least until high tech comes along and allows a few to affect a great many at once... Simple statements can lead to interesting speculations, and maybe some stories, if you keep picking at them...IMHO anyway. -- Mike B. -- "Happiness is a warm puppy", said the anaconda.